The Great Weezy Debate, Round 1:
PE
I have received the book and sat up far too late
devouring it all. It was a fascinating read; there were some points well made,
particularly about Wayne's technical ability and prolific output. I am catching
up on some of the songs you mentioned too.
However, if you were a fellow emcee, instead of a
scholar- I would totally challenge you to a battle right this moment. I do
refute your claim that Wayne is worthy of study like Shakespeare, Dylan or even
Dr Suess. And I think that you do the rest of Hip Hop a disservice wby fixating
on him, seemingly to the exclusion of all other Hip Hop before him. By
focussing on how he says what he says and not what; not only do
you show a lack of understanding of how emceeing works (every emcee worth his
salt employs all of the tricks that Wayne uses, at slightly different ratios
and often to better effect) but you also ignore one of the fundemental parts of
being an emcee.
Emceeing isn't all technical ability and how many
puns you can use to describe having sex. Voice, style, authenticity and most of
all CONTENT carry a huge amount of weight. Your study pretty much ignores the
content of Weezy's rhymes (or makes spurious claims that it is more clever than
it appears), where there are numerous rappers out there who can deliver humour,
puns, every technical trick in the book, style and tell a story- all in 16 bars
or less.
I was going to throw in a few examples here, but
for this point, I only need one. Go back and listen to Illmatic by Nas. In
full, with no distractions. It is heartbreaking, real, groundbreaking, banging
Hip Hop that changed the game completely. It's crammed with every
technical trick in the book (well, in your book) and still outshines much of
what is put out today. Are you really telling me that Weezy has ever or will
ever match that standard of emceeing?
If the book contained more positive examples as to
how Wayne favourably compares to other brilliant emcees in the game or how he
fits into and contributes to hip hop culture as a whole, I might have bought a
bit more of it. Sadly though, it sounds a bit like a love letter to the cool
kid in your university class, rather than a balanced exploration of what makes
an emcee great.
Wayne must be onto something- he is most likely a
multi millionaire and he has tapped into the 'bitches, bling and drugs' side of
rap and depressingly exploited it to it's fullest. But int he same way that
Simon Cowell being a millionaire doesn't make him an artist, or Kim
Kardashian's fame doesnt make her a genius- neither does Weezy's success make
him a decent emcee.
… your argument only makes sense if the matching
syllables per line were the only criteria that rap is based on and it very much
isn't. The best verses in the world aren't the same as the technically tightest
verses in the world. There is crossover, but they are not the same. ....And if
even if they were, Wayne still wouldn't make the cut on the technical side
anyway.
KK
I’m glad you
enjoyed The Literary Genius of Lil Wayne. However, I think you missed the thesis
and one of the main arguments.
The thesis is
that Lil Wayne uses literary devices in such a way and to such an extent that
he compares to Shakespeare and Dylan as a genius in his use of such devices.
Arguing this claim doesn’t require any comparisons to other hip hop artists,
but I do, in fact, compare him to others. The simple fact is, other hip hop
artists just don’t use literary devices to the extent Wayne does. You try to
fault me for not giving them more space in my book or more attention in my
listening, but they don’t do what I’m interested in. You claim that Nas’ work
is “crammed with every technical trick in the [my] book,” but it’s simply and
patently false. Nas just doesn’t do it. Period. Anyone arguing to the contrary
would need to provide examples.
A love letter
would not be argued meticulously, logically, as my book has been noted to do,
“like a mathematical proof,” by critics.
I take issue with your claim that "every emcee
worth his salt employs all of the tricks that Wayne uses." Please produce
an example of another rapper matching 8+ syllables line-to-line. I've never
found one and never had anyone find one to show me.
I grant the
point on how vs. what.
I have identified objective criteria by which we
can measure the literary merit of lyrics, i.e. the frequency and manner in
which established literary devices are used. Other emcees simply don’t use them
anywhere close to the extent, density, and combinations that Wayne does. I have
laid out such uses in my book and have not seen anyone do similarly with other
artists, nor have I found or been presented with anything comparable from other
artists in the hip hop genre, or any pop music for that matter.
Your response
reads to me “I like a bunch of hip hop artists who you, Kreston, don’t seemed
to have listened to, so you shouldn’t be making claims about Lil Wayne that are
entirely independent of what other artists do, even though your claims don’t
require such comparisons. And, I’m going to make unsupported, general
assertions that the ones I like do everything Wayne does, but I won’t provide
any examples. Instead, I’ll refer you to a song that doesn’t contain anything
close to what you demonstrate in your book but that I like for entirely
different reasons.”
PE
Mate, there are hundreds... you need to listen to
some more hip hop. Probably the easiest example is http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eminem/rapgod.html Such a
dope tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbGs_qK2PQA
Also, I present
R A the rugged man (one of my favourites)
tech nine, immortal technique and kendrick lamar
also regularly kill it.
....And a whole bunch of others, including a ton of
my friends. There is a
freestyle emcee called Gramski here who does it with damn near near every free
he spits. It's incredible to watch- but matching up syllables line to line
isn't an exception to hip hop, it's been one of the rules, ever since Rakim
first showed us how to do it. I'll let my pal Baba Brinkman explain it in full.
What say you to
that sir?
KK
Looked at rap
god so far can only find max. 5 consecutive unique syllables rhymed. This is
why you need to find one example.
Give me TWO
LINES, please, where 8 or more consecutive, unique syllable-pairings rhyme
from someone other than Lil Wayne.
PE
Can you remind me of the special, best ever, magic
lines that Wayne spit that you want me to find a match for?
I do suggest that you check out everyone that I
have mentioned below though, they are all absolutely amazing emcees in their
own rights and cover a lot of different styles. I also think you'd be hard
pressed to find rhyme patterns in lil wayne songs that match the likes of R A
the Rugged man, Elzhi or Big Pun.
Which kind of brings me back to one of my main
points- Hip Hop does not exist in isloation... Do you like other Hip Hop artists?
Who are your top ten emcees? Favourite songs (that aren't by lil wayne)?
What was the last emcee you saw perform live? Have you read any books on
emceeing or Hip Hop culture? Have you ever tried any of the four elements
yourself? Can you even name them without doing a google search? This might
seem like it goes slightly off the point, but I think it is central to the
argument of whether or not you are qualified to make these kind of judgements
on Wayne's music. You wouldn't study classical composition after listening to a
bit of Beethoven and then getting stuck in....and I think you are doing Hip Hop
a disservice if you haven't done your homework before jumping in and making
grand claims about a single emcee that you enjoy.
It might also be
that I am making assumptions about you that are utterly, completely and ball
achingly wrong. I am being a bit deliberately provocative here- so do feel free
to prove me wrong.
KK
a rhyme of 8+ unique syllable-pairs
so, a lot of rappers have "multi's" of
3-5 syllables. I'm looking for 6, 7, 8+ syllable pairings in a rhyme. Not 3
syllables three times or 5 syllables twice. I'm looking for:
a-b-c-d-e-f-g-h
a'-b'-c'-d'-e'-f'-g'-h'
^syllables from a rapper other than Wayne.
When I listen to other rappers and hear 1, 2, 3
syllables, maybe 4, rarely 5, I don't get engaged.
The judgments I make on Wayne's music are as
follows:
He has longer multi/poly-syllabic rhymes than other
rappers.
He uses every single catalogued type of rhyme in
literary analysis.
He uses far more puns than any other rapper with
far greater frequency.
He has more meticulous parallel structure of
syllabic counts combined with rhymes, combined with puns.
PE
Ok, a couple of thing here. First- can you send me
the actual example of Weezy employing the 'rhyme of 8+ unique syllable-pairs',
not because I don't believe you, but so I can find an equivilent and better
example.
Secondly, your retort is verging on the
nonsensical; 'When I listen to other rappers and hear 1, 2, 3
syllables, maybe 4, rarely 5, I don't get engaged' Does that mean you don't
listen to any other hip hop because you don't think it is as technically
proficent as lil Wayne? How could you possibly make the judgements that you
make by only listening to Wayne in isolation? And then only listening to Wayne
based on a 'number of syllables rhymed' and not the content or music behind
him?
I think you are doing Hip Hop and even Wayne
himself a massive disservice here. It suggests that only your favourite is
worth listening too and then only because of a perceived technical proficency
and nothing else.
Because Weezy is seen as 'low brow' in terms of
popular culture, you have skirted around doing proper research or due
dilligence in studying him and the culture surrounding his music. It's as if
it's enough to study him, regardless off the quality of that study; 'Hey look
guys, I am studying Lil Wayne! Crazy huh?!' The fact that you weren't
able to, or chose not to, answer the rest of my questions about Hip Hop, says
it all so far as I am concerned.
Over the festive season, I will confer with
colleagues and listen to hip hop to find you specific examples that disprove
Wayne's superiority on the criteria that you have set. In the meantime:
He has longer multi/poly-syllabic rhymes than other
rappers.
How can you tell if you have not studied other
rappers? Where are your examples and evidence, not of wayne but of the other
rappers you claim that he is better than?
He uses every single catalogued type of rhyme in
literary analysis.
So do I, so do we ALL! These types of rhyme are the
tools in our tools box and I can give you examples of a variety of emcees which
use each and every example. I can probably show you my own rhymes which have
examples of all of these.
He uses far more puns than any other rapper with
far greater frequency.
Again, that is a
statement which simply isn't true. And until you listen and study other rappers
(in the case of your statement, you would have to study ALL other rappers and
every rhyme written) you can't start making claims like that with any validity
at all. In the words of Celph Titled ' ...good punchlines are just bad
jokes'. Here's a quick example, from the masterful but sadly passed, Big
L: Best Punchlines From
Big L
KK
Like this, from Watch My Shoes:
“Gators, Matadors, baboons and those Grizzlies
Haters gotta go'n iTunes to go get me.”
Parallel structure between lines for 11
syllables.
I can claim that other rappers don't do this, because I have looked into the purported best-of-the-best polysyllabic rhymes from rap and have found them to fall woefully short of Weezy in terms of length and integration with other literary devices. Your "Best Punchlines from Big L," Big Pun, Eminem, Nas, etc. etc. don't have ANY polysyllabic rhymes even approaching 8, 11, 13 syllables that Wayne has. Furthermore, they don't have any extended parallel structures involving the combination of rhyme, puns, metaphor, etc. that Wayne routinely does. So, if these are the best you can fire at me, then the debate is over.
If you think I'm missing something, give me the actual lines and point out the length of the polysyllabic rhymes and the other literary devices used.
PE
Ha- that is a
great couple of lines. I will have a dig around to see what I can find to
match it.
To be continued...
Professor Elemental:
Kreston Kent:
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